Tuesday, July 31, 2007

The God Truthiness IV: Morality Play

dr clam finds The God Delusion's Chapter 6 “The Roots of Morality: Why are we Good?” to be “not very satisfying”. For me it couldn't be further from the truth. I will admit that it is a slightly weaker chapter because the last couple of pages stray from its intended purpose. Its final paragraph begins, “The springboard for this discussion of moral philosophy was a hypothetical religious claim that, without a God, morals are relative and arbitrary” (267). If Dawkins had stuck to disproving this hypothetical religious claim it would have been OK, but at the end of the chapter he drifts into the shoals where the voracious dr clam lays in wait. Otherwise though it does a great job of taking God out of morality.


After a foray into the kind of hate mail he gets from Christians, there is the section 'Does our Moral Sense have a Darwinian Origin?' in which he details a Darwinian explanation for altruism. This quote is the meat of it:


First, there is the special case of genetic kinship. Second, there is reciprocation: the payment of favours given, and the giving of favours in 'anticipation' of payback. Following on from this there is, third, the Darwinian benefit of acquiring a reputation for generosity and kindness. And fourth, if Zahavi is right, there is the particular additional benefit of conspicuous generosity as a way of buying unfakeably authentic advertising. (251)


This is followed up with 'A Case Study in the Roots of Morality' which showed studies by first Hauser and then Hauser and Singer which tracked the answers given by people to moral dilemmas. The studies included a tribe that had little organized religion, and believers and non-believers of religion. It was concluded that, “there is no statistically significant difference between atheists and religious believers in making these judgements” (258).


So armed with a Darwinian explanation for altruism plus Hauser's and Singer's studies Dawkins is on solid ground to declare, “This seems compatible with the view, which I and many others hold, that we do no need God in order to be good – or evil” (258).


dr clam says, “Richard's chapter six is about the roots of morality... He seems to be aware of the problem, but he never addresses it.” And in the comments to the post previous to this he says “The problem, which Dawkins' doesn't seem to get, is how to achieve an 'absolute morality' (as defined by theologians, philosophers, Wikipedia etc.) without God. I don't say this can't be done without God-in fact, I tried to work out how to do it without God myself once. I would love to see a serious atheistic attempt to address this problem. Dawkins' chapter is not it.”


As to the claim that “he never address” the roots of morality Chapter 6 does demonstrate that across belief and culture evolution has provided us with a guidebook to morality. And in life a guidebook is infinitely more useful than rulebook. As dr clam also wants “a serious atheistic attempt to address the problem” then I'd suggest a study of this guidebook. Conducting studies similar to Hauser's and Singer's, then looking for trends of the kinds of answers people make to particular kinds of dilemmas. From that a set of moral principles could be designed.


And Dawkins does mention Kant's "act only on the maxim whereby thou canst at the same time will it should become a universal law" (266) as one such example of a non-religious morality, although he does qualify that “it is no so easy to see how to broaden it to morality generally” (266).



We might not have all the answers to morality, but thanks to evolution we are equiped to find them.

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16 Comments:

At August 01, 2007 10:14 AM, Blogger Dr Clam said...

Sure, he gives a plausible evolutionary 'Just So' story for how morality could have arisen. The problem with this story is that it doesn't offer any reason why we should bother with morality: the obvious deduction from his theory is the one made by all those profoundly evil 19th century philosophers, that morality is just a pathetic hangover from our animal origins that we should toss overboard as we get along with the serious business of becoming Supermen.

 
At August 01, 2007 10:23 AM, Blogger winstoninabox said...

I'm lost as to the meaning of "why we should bother with". Do you mean why should we study morality? Why should morality be a factor in our lives? Why...? Sorry, just don't know.

I wouldn't agree about your "obvious deduction". We are the summation of our evolutionary selves. To "toss overboard" what we are seems like exactly the wrong conclusion.

 
At August 01, 2007 1:08 PM, Blogger Dr Clam said...

If our 'good' and 'evil' are just concepts that have developed because they had adaptive value, what reasons do we have to stick with them?

(1) Because they are ours. This is Peirce's method of tenacity. We can steasdfastly cling to whatever we chose to define as 'good' or 'evil'. This gives us absolutely no ground to rationally argue about 'good' or 'evil' with anyone who does not share our definition.

(2) Because someone else told us to. This is the default craven position of all people who pay their parking fines because they are afraid of punishment. This is pathetic and I object to it on principle. It also gives us no grounds to rationally argue about 'good' or 'evil' with people who are not under the same authority.

(3) Because they are adaptive. Okay, so maybe the fyjian/Nietzschean mode is maladaptive. But there are lots of sneaky ways to ensure that other people obey the rules and I enhance my own success by abusing them. Why shouldn't I do this? There is no rational reason for me not to. Also, the morality which Dawkins apparently espouses is far from the best from this standpoint. Sharia or Halacha, or Snake-Handling Appalachian Revivalist morality, are all much more adaptive in Darwinian terms. If we are going to define 'good' and 'evil' in purely adaptive terms, Dawkins has no ground to stand on in making his own ex cathedra pronouncements calling the actions of his particular peer group 'good' and the actions of the demonised other 'bad'.

(4) Because, like our eyes have evolved to see stuff that is really there, our moral sense has evolved in response to something that is really there. In that case, the 'what is really there' is the thing we need to be talking about. A detailed exposition of the evolution of the human eye is not an appropriate rebuttal to my claim that I once saw the Prophet Ezekiel rollerblading in Ultimo.* Neither is a detailed exposition of the (possible) evolution of the human moral sense an appropriate rebuttal to my claim that there is a real direction in idea-space called 'Good', even in a universe with no sentient inhabitants.

*:I don't think I've actually ever made this claim before, but what the hell. I may as well go ahead and make it now!

 
At August 01, 2007 1:47 PM, Blogger winstoninabox said...

Thanks for putting me onto Pierce.

 
At August 03, 2007 12:15 PM, Blogger winstoninabox said...

dr clam you're making a pretty spurious complaint. The chapter was about the root of morality, and can there be morality without God. The studies he cites could be dismantled as poorly conducted, his conclusion could shown to be erroneous, etc. but he can't be rebutted by claiming it doesn't do what is was never intended to do.

The question of why stick to any morality goes well beyond the scope of what Dawkins is talking about.

And the the answers you gave are applicable to a divine-based morality. Do believers stick with their morality because:

(1)It is theirs.
(2)God told them to.
(3)Because it is unadaptive.
(4)So that they don't have to do the work of seeing what is really there.

 
At August 03, 2007 1:46 PM, Blogger Dr Clam said...

Now, my argument may not be relevant to what Dawkins is trying to say, but this is just evidence that what Dawkins is trying to say is irrelevant to the question which is ultimately more important.

Whether or not there is God is much less important than whether there is Good, because the only valid reason for worshipping God is because he is Good. There are lots of definitions of God and Dawkins has defined 'God' in a way that I think is not very useful or interesting. (That's back in my first post on his book, I think)

I agree entirely that sticking with a Divine Morality just because
(a) It is ours,
(b) God told us to, or
(c) It is adaptive,
is immoral and should be condemned.

 
At August 03, 2007 3:03 PM, Blogger winstoninabox said...

Whether or not there is God is much less important than whether there is Good, because the only valid reason for worshipping God is because he is Good.

This is certainly going well beyond the scope of the book, but hey there's no rulebook for the discussion. I'm interested in your idea of "Good"? An ideal? A actual force? A collective belief?

 
At August 04, 2007 12:36 PM, Blogger Dr Clam said...

Might I prevail upon you to offer your own definition of 'Good' first? I think I have been talking too much. :)

 
At August 04, 2007 7:10 PM, Blogger Marco Parigi said...

My biggest objection to this chapter is that he completely ignores the study of philosophy and their definitions of all these things like moral relativism, what is meant by "good" in this context and the difference between a philosophical assumption and a theological conclusion. He has his own different definitions of all these things (to the learned philosophers of our time), and the way I read it each conclusion he makes derives from "reason alone". From experience combating the various spurious claims of the religious people I argue against, when there is a claim of not having any axioms at all, they are feeding you a circular argument designed to convince which doesn't actually prove anything. For instance, the hypothetical claim that "without a God, morals are relative and arbitrary" in a philosophical sense is a non-claim. Belief in God and a belief in absolute morality are two separate axioms that go some way to defining ones philosophy. It has nothing to do with what caused us to believe those axioms in the first place. Whether it is God's actions or an evolved response to believe or not to believe these axioms does not prove them true or untrue.
It seems our usual "moral sense" behaves as if we had an absolute morality in certain contexts, and as if we had a relative morality in other contexts. I for one believe that a society in which most people believe in God will work better than one which is strictly atheist. There are always times when "nobody is looking" and breaking the law will not harm anyone else. A belief in God will tend to keep people law-abiding without intrusive enforcement.

 
At August 05, 2007 2:05 PM, Blogger Dr Clam said...

Nicely parsed, Marco! 'God' and'Absolute Morality' are two separate things, which the people you argue against (and probably me, too) have muddled together somewhat.

 
At August 05, 2007 11:37 PM, Blogger winstoninabox said...

marco, thank you for your considered post.

My biggest objection to this chapter is that he completely ignores the study of philosophy... each conclusion he makes derives from "reason alone

Uhm, well that rather is the point you see. Dawkins is making a reason-based argument. You won't find God being dismantled by philosophy and theology. They are the house of cards that Dawkins is pushing over using science.

It seems our usual "moral sense" behaves as if we had an absolute morality in certain contexts, and as if we had a relative morality in other contexts.

I believe so too.

I for one believe that a society in which most people believe in God will work better than one which is strictly atheist. There are always times when "nobody is looking" and breaking the law will not harm anyone else. A belief in God will tend to keep people law-abiding without intrusive enforcement.

Well I can't agree that a belief in God makes any difference in keeping people law-abiding. And I'll list 4 reasons.

1) The studies Dawkins cites suggest that we have an internal moral compass irrespective of belief or culture.
2) My own personal experience of living for the last 7 years in a cculture different from my own, but one with lower crime and a lower number of believers further encourages me to think this true.
3) I'd like to present myself as Exhibit "A". A non-believer yet at least as equally law-abidding as the believers I know (AFAIK).
4) And finally as Dawkins says, "if... you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good" (259). So marco, would you continue to be a good person without God?

'God' and'Absolute Morality' are two separate things, which the people you argue against (and probably me, too) have muddled together somewhat.

dr clam, are the people you argue against the same religous people who make various spurious claims that marco writes of? or are they Dawkins and me? or someone else? Sorry, it's not clear to me.

And I'm going to drop the question of what is "good". We've already got so much to talk about, and I now realise that it would be moving into a philosophical area. And as I've just explained to marco, Dawkins isn't employing philosophy. So I should probably give it a miss too. Maybe a topic for the evil dr clam's blog?

 
At August 06, 2007 11:49 AM, Blogger Dr Clam said...

Oh bad sentence of mine, sorry winstoninabox :(

I meant, both the people Marco says he argues against *and* myself, Dr Clam, may have been guilty of muddying the waters here and overstating the connection between the existence of an absolute morality and the existence of God.

I will make one last pedantic comment before taking your generous suggestion and hijacking this discussion back to Clamland,thanks! :D

'...philosophy and theology. They are the house of cards that Dawkins is pushing over using science.'

Science can't do that. Science depends on a particular set of philosophical axioms. It can't prove those axioms, and it can't work if you remove those axioms. Philosophy and science are qualitatively different things. You can't push philosophy over using science any more than you can find the prime factors of the colour blue.

 
At August 06, 2007 12:26 PM, Blogger Marco Parigi said...

Uhm, well that rather is the point you see. Dawkins is making a reason-based argument

AHA. You have fallen into my trap. You see, Dawkins for his reasoning quotes many scientists' studies, discoveries and statements. However, all this science he is referring to Implicitly or Explicitly *assumes* the non-existence of God. As Dawkins is selling the God Fallacy as a *conclusion* to his argument, and the basis of his arguments are scientific, then his whole book is an elaborate exercise in circular reasoning QED. This reminds me of a whole raft of theological literature which I've been shown in the past (not usually read)which does the opposite, of "proving" the existence of God using cherry-picked science *and* theological expert references. References which include an implicit assumption of the existence of God. These are the people I'm referring to which I argue that their literature *proves* exactly nothing.

 
At August 06, 2007 1:45 PM, Blogger winstoninabox said...

AHA. You have fallen into my trap.

Your trap is indeed so cunning that it has two weasel's tail, for after reading the entirety of this comment several times I'm yet to comprehend the trap's full magnificence. In fact, I'm yet to comprehend it at all.

You see, Dawkins for his reasoning quotes many scientists' studies, discoveries and statements. However, all this science he is referring to Implicitly or Explicitly *assumes* the non-existence of God. As Dawkins is selling the God Fallacy as a *conclusion* to his argument, and the basis of his arguments are scientific, then his whole book is an elaborate exercise in circular reasoning QED.

Oh wait, I see the trap now. It's circular. Yes. The shape is definitely circular.

Well in his 10 chapters of circular arguments that foolishly appeal to science Dawkins disposes of God in chapters 3 and 4. As these are the next two I'm looking at, I'll put off my congratulations for your cunningness until I've written about them.

That said, there's still time for you to read these chapters, or even any of the book, or the book itself, yourself before I write about them. Fore warned is fore armed they say.

 
At August 06, 2007 2:09 PM, Blogger Dr Clam said...

I recommend the Proof by Contrariness I may possibly have linked too before, on andrew Rilstone's blog.

If God exists, it will irritate Richard Dawkins.
Richard Dawkins deserves to be irritated.
Therefore, God exists.
QED

Remember that Marco is higher up the reading food chain than us, winstoninabox: we read these books and predigest them to save him the bother of reading them. If he was forced to read Dawkins himself, there would be severe mental indigestion.

 
At August 06, 2007 2:22 PM, Blogger winstoninabox said...

If I've never thanked you before for putting me onto Mr Rilstone's blog then I do so now.

I have rarely laughed so much as when I read him. His prose is as poetic as his wit is sharp. Whoever else may have bothered to read this far down these comments, do yourself a favour and spend a few days reading the above linked blog.

 

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